Tony Benn vs Jo Swinson on the EU
Published: 19 June 2009
Author: Janie Lawrence
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Does the EU benefit Britain or should we reconsider the power it has over our lives? Sideways News spoke exclusively to Tony Benn and Jo Swinson to get their very different thoughts.
Tony Benn, 84 was a Labour MP for nearly 50 years until 2001
Tony Benn wants us out
"The structure of the EU is fundamentally undemocratic. Laws are made in secret and not by the European Parliament who is elected; MEPs only have a limited role. The Commission cannot be removed and doesn’t have to listen to us. In a democracy you can defeat a government to change laws they’ve passed – in the EU you can’t. The only reason MPs listen to people is that they can be sacked by the people.
"We had a referendum on the Mayor of London but not on this, the biggest question of all.
"If a government is elected in the UK that wants to repeal a European law, it can’t because laws agreed by previous governments can’t be changed. One of the reasons the House of Commons is empty is that the really important laws are made in Brussels and Westminster has been reduced to a Greater London Authority.
"The sort of Europe I’d like to see would be much slower, more stable, a mini United Nations with no power to enforce. But The Lisbon Treaty represents a major constitutional change and is the constitution dressed up as a Treaty. It transfers huge tranches of power and gives the EU the right to change its own constitution without the consent of member states, reducing them to provinces in an empire. We are becoming a federation which was always the grand master plan. I don’t see any obligation to obey a law from someone I didn’t elect, can’t remove and doesn’t have to listen to me. How soon before the EU says we must privatise the NHS?
"I was born a European and I’ll die one, so I don’t see it as a nationalist argument. But I fear that this system is so defective it will one day break up and we will return to the worse form of nationalism. The recent vote for the hard right rests with the government; the BNP is a product of the economic crisis which is how Hitler came to power. I think we’re heading for a very troubled time."
Jo Swinson, 28 is Lib Dem MP for East Dunbartonshire
Jo Swinson is pro Europe
"I’m not surprised that so many voters are sceptical about Europe. It’s seen as remote because there’s not a huge amount of information about the decisions that are made in Brussels.
"We’ve proposed a referendum as to whether we should stay in the EU, irrespective of whether the Lisbon Treaty is ratified or not. The Lib Dems though strongly believe that Britain’s future best interests are best served by staying in.
"In an increasingly globalised world we have big challenges – whether that’s international crime or climate change – and to tackle that we need structures to do that effectively.
"Three million British jobs depend on trade with the EU. The reason we have so much more doorstep recycling stems from European directives on landfill. When Europe does something popular the government takes the credit, when it’s something unpopular it blames Europe. Many places in the UK have benefited from European money.
"There isn’t a European government telling us what to do - that fails to recognise the role British MEPs play. In many areas of policy there is a British opt out and day-to-day stuff - public services, benefits, the taxation system - is all done within the UK.
"We have signed up to free movement within the EU but the NHS has benefited hugely from the migration of labour. There are also 1.6 million UK citizens living in other EU countries.
"The Lisbon Treaty contains many measures to make Europe more democratic. It will lead to more power for the elected MEPs and less to the unelected. It has elements in common with the original constitution but it is a different concept. I think the analogy of mice and men works well. We share 90% of the same DNA but that 10% makes all the difference."
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